Thistleknot ([info]thistleknot) wrote,
@ 2006-07-17 23:33:00
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Current mood: thoughtful
Current music:Shania Twain - It Only Hurts When I Breathe

Holodecks.....and the Nature of Reality.
Hello again.

Lately, I've found myself in a rather philosophical mindset. I've stopped to question the nature of a great many things as of late.

Oddly, I find myself mulling over the nature of reality, sparked by Star Trek: The Next Generation.

I've paused to consider the impact of a particular bit of technology presented in that show. The holodeck. Through the use of photon emitters, tractor beams, replicators (not to be confused with the Stargate ones....), and force field technology, the computer can create people, objects, animals, and many, many other things. If one were industrious enough, they could program an entire world within it.

So I stopped to formulate a premise:

Say you were a crew member on the Enterprise. You went on a simple away mission, and were beamed back. A fairly standard procedure on that show.

You finish your mission, then go about your life (Like you do...),working your station shifts, playing in a weekly poker game, making communiques to your Grandma, asking out the cute ensign on Deck 26. You make new friends, and mourn the loss of old friends killed in the line of duty.You go to several more planets, several more away missions, and show courage in the face of danger, show novel ways to solve problems, all those things that will serve to make you a fine officer. You get promoted from Ensign to Lieutenant (JG) and on up, eventually landing at Lieutenant Commander. Your dates with that ensign blossom into a deeper relationship, you marry, and think of transferring to a starbase or nice planet to try and start a family of your very own. Everything's going along, following your plan (Though not exactly....it's certianly good enough), careerwise, in your love life, and amongst your friends, for the most part.

One day, as you are working on the bridge, you notice out of the corner of your eye, that the starboard wall "flickers" and you catch, just for a second, the black with orange borders, squares of a holodeck wall. You stand up to investigate, confused, and seconds later, the bridge fades away, leaving you in the black and orange land of the inside of the Holodeck. The arch is clearly visible. With the realization that you were indeed living in a holographic projection, numbly, you stumble out of the holodeck into the corridor.

(I'm sure this is confusing, but bear with me. There's still a point to all this. It's not just random rambling.)

As you stand out there, trying desperately to make sense of what happened to you, you start to wonder.

1. How long was I in there?
2. Did I really spend that much time in the Holodeck?
3. What was real there?

The last question is certianly the hardest one to answer.

What is the nature of reality? Is reality that which we see and feel, which we detect and interact with through our senses? Or is there a transcendent truth which defines reality in a concrete, definite manner outside of what we can perceive? What is the nature of truth?

In an attempt to answer these broader questions, questions narrower in scope started to form, and you had hoped that answers to these narrower questions would shed light, would bring perspective, and that the amalgamation of the answers to the narrower questions would start to form the basis of an answer to the broader questions posed.

Should you have mourned the loss of your crewmates and friends, even though they have been proven to be nothing more than complex algorithms in a program?

Was the love that you felt for the cute ensign you married real as well? Or was it simply a complex crush ( Considering that in the Star Trek universe that it is nigh on impossible for a computer to have true emotion, the feelings would have to be one-sided, and therefore a crush.) on an intricate weaving of force field, tractor beam, and photon emitter technology; a fancy facade, for lack of a better term?

Certianly, your life on the holodeck was not real, in a conventional sense. But does it follow that because that experience was not real, that your entire life there was a complex fantasy, that the memories and feelings were not real as well? Does the fact that your experience was untrue, unreal, necessarily negate the feelings and memories that you had there?

Should they be labeled as untrue and irrelevant to the "new" life you've begun now that you've walked out of the holodeck?

Or should your recognize that they were untrue, but treasure the essence of the feelings and experience you shared, in much the same way that a person might enjoy the performance and show of a great actor on stage?

Or should you remember that they took place in an "unreal" environment, and still accept the experiences and memories as they were, because they in and of themselves, are true, despite taking place in an "unreal" environment? Can an "untrue" experience create "true" memories and feelings?

The manner in which your life played out there, was it a "real, true experience" (for lack of better terminology)? Or was it simply an unconscious projection of your desires, taken in by the computer and made manifest for you? How did you influence your experience there, if at all? And can the desires, the wishes, the sheer willpower of someone who wants something enough make it real, or does it remain a facade?

Does there exist a point, where a facade, an untruth, an illusion, becomes so complex that it is indistinguishable from reality? And if that point exists, does truth break down there?

Just a few thoughts that are running about my brain at this early morning hour. It's odd the things that you consider sometimes.

For those of you in a more philosophical mindset, who might wish to reply, I'd love to hear your thoughts and perspectives.

For those of you who actually read through that entire, borderline nonsensical, rambling post, I thank you, and hope you find the time, energy and desire to share your thoughts.




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[info]aleisha
2006-07-18 01:51 pm UTC (link)
Reality is what we make it. If that is what he thought was real then for the length of time it existed it was reality. He didn't know it was fake until later. That means that all of the emotions he felt were real. The thing that is confusing about reality is that it changes depending on who you talk to. (Sigh) Something like discovering everything was a holographic image would drive most people insane.

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[info]craftyran
2006-07-18 03:02 pm UTC (link)
Or should you remember that they took place in an "unreal" environment, and still accept the experiences and memories as they were, because they in and of themselves, are true, despite taking place in an "unreal" environment? Can an "untrue" experience create "true" memories and feelings?

This is my vote. Even though the situation itself was unreal, the emotions it evoked were very real, and carry on into the time past when the situation ended. Real emotions = real meaning.

That sounds like a 2x4 to the head situation, though!

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Down the rabbit hole....
[info]gmendel
2006-07-18 05:09 pm UTC (link)
Red pill, or blue?

You know there's a whole series of internet films taken from japanese television where people are ever-so-gently abducted from their beds, brought to a new environment, and woken up, to find themselves on a water slide, surrounded by men with guns, or being dragged through a field of mud by a horse. Maybe Japanese law has a different take on tort claims.

I think you've discovered the fraternity prank of the 25th century - transporting somebody into a holodeck in their sleep, and finding out how long it takes for them to notice the difference.

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Seriously, though... part 1
[info]gmendel
2006-07-18 06:50 pm UTC (link)
There may or may not be a transcendent Truth, but what difference does it really make? We experience and act on the world through our brains. Isn't the real question here somewhere around the meaning of life?

Some of the answers to that question have included: To love God, to pursue pleasure, to do good in the world. None of those really satisfy me now.

I think the answer hovers somewhere around the pursuit of personal growth.

Does an artificial reality manufactured for your needs really provide an authentic enough experience to serve this? I wouldn't think so - it seems like as soon as Ensign Redshirt steps off the holodeck, he'll find that people are more complicated, more difficult to predict, and nobody is manufacturing any sort of storyline to center the universe around him.

Maybe that's why holodeck characters who became self-aware - The Doctor, Prof. Moriarty - weren't satisfied with living in a holographic universe, they wanted to interact with real people. Likewise, Geordi got a rude awakening when, after flirting with a holographic engineer, he met the real counterpart and couldn't relate.

Star Trek, TNG was pretty clear that as sensually convincing as the Holodeck was, it tended to stop short of really being able to duplicate the personalities of people.

Now, we, as humans, are evolved to do certain things. Eat a mixed diet (with a certain amount of meat, a limited amount of sugar and salt, but not too much), walk long distances, live in tribes.

The world has changed, but our evolution has not. We have the ability to do things that are contrary to evolution, and this can cause problems. Too much sugar turns us into diabetics, too much salt gives us heart disease. People for whom running or sprinting is a hobby tend to develop knee problems, people who are inactive have other problems.

Not being around real people (the "tribes" of social networks we form) can have slow, subtle effects. Will Ensign Redshirt merely find that nobody around him remembers the events he's shared with his holographic counterpart? Or will he also find that they don't react the way he thinks they should, and find himself maladaptive to this new social environment?

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Seriously, though... part 2
[info]gmendel
2006-07-18 06:53 pm UTC (link)

Or should your recognize that they were untrue, but treasure the essence of the feelings and experience you shared, in much the same way that a person might enjoy the performance and show of a great actor on stage?


Probably, yes. Ensign Redshirt might miss his wife and kids enough that he'll even want to go back and visit them, but he should understand that they don't really exist, and aren't suffering by his absence...

Or should you remember that they took place in an "unreal" environment, and still accept the experiences and memories as they were, because they in and of themselves, are true, despite taking place in an "unreal" environment? Can an "untrue" experience create "true" memories and feelings?

Also, yes, except that it really was a "real" environment, yet an artificial one. There's a difference, eh? We can have real feelings relating to particularly moving novel, movie, video game, holodeck simulation.

Likewise, our ancestors were powerfully moved by the stories told by the elders around the campfire - stories that brought meaning and context to their lives. Our ancestors did not have the option of permanently losing yourself in those stories. Eventually the fire dies, the storyteller's throat gets sore, and everybody needs to go to bed. Tomorrow, after the nuts and berries have been gathered, and the hunters have made their best efforts with their spears, perhaps there can be another story.

The tribal elder has now changed. We can plug him into a wall socket, pipe a fiberoptic cable into his mouth, and command him with a remote control or a mouse what sort of story to tell and how long to keep telling it. He won't get tired, the campfire won't die down, and nobody is telling us to go to bed.

We can sit there and listen to his story until we forget how to relate to the rest of the tribe. We don't need to have our tribe (family and friends) around us so we can all smile and laugh at the fun parts, boo and hiss at the villains. We don't have to share this experience with anybody. Sure, somebody, somewhere else, might be listening to the same story, but we can't look at their faces to see whether they are transfixed or bored. We can't make eye contact with them to understand that they just discovered the same secret meaning in the story that we did. And we certainly can't hold their hand or touch them, physically, to deepen the experience.

The problem is, the storyteller has changed, but nothing short of several tens of thousands of years of evolution will be enough to change us with it.

This is why, in the 21st century or the 25th, we have to know when to turn the fantasy off.

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[info]rhyn
2006-07-18 07:06 pm UTC (link)
Experiences change and affect you, whether they happened in the holodeck or real life. Since they were experienced in an environment that was so realistic the person felt it was reality at the time, it would affect that person the same way "real life" would.

Of course once the person finds out it was the holodeck it would color the memory of those experiences, but that doesn't negate them. In fact I would think that the loss of the holodeck life would be treated much like the loss of a loved one in real life. Something you grieve for since it's gone, but eventually you move on with your new life, and the old memories and experiences from the holodeck are no less real for having happened on the holodeck.

That's a little simplistic and glosses over things, but I think it holds true in general.

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Is reality really real?
[info]dellswor
2006-07-19 02:09 am UTC (link)
Looks like we're walking off into the meta-questions about existence... I don't think I'm likely to be much help since I'm not sure I'm real. What the heck does real mean anyway?... I would say that everything was real in the holodeck, every bit is as real as everything outside of the holodeck.

Our character has experiences in the holodeck. At each event he does something and has a memory of having done it. After the event passes it is just a memory as it would be in real life (so much of life doesn't produce more than passing artifacts). Prove beyond doubt that we really had fried chicken and drank a bottle of red wine together once... I remember that like it was real and I think you remember it like it was real too, but there is no way to know that it wasn't an event on a holodeck somewhere... And it might well have been an event on a holodeck since there is no way to prove that it happened or was real to someone outside of the holodeck (someone who wasn't there like my brother here in VA).

Lets attack this a different route... When everything flickers and you walk out on deck, how do you know that you aren't still on the holodeck? The flickering could be part of the simulation. This new Enterprise seems every bit as real as the last holodeck Enterprise which seemed every bit as real as the Enterprise you started on (which may or may not have been real, what if you were taken to a holodeck as an infant or born there)...

The matrix has the same problem, I would argue Neo is still in the matrix. The scene where he stands there and stops the squid; how does he do that if he isn't in the matrix? You rejected the paradise simulation, go to the 21st century simulation. You rejected the 21st century simulation, go to the post apocalyptic simulation. You rejected the post apocalyptic simulation go to...

The "real" Enterprise has the same (or at least very similar rules) to the holodeck enterprise. A good deal of what was learned in the holodeck should be applicable to the "real" Enterprise. What has changed primarily are the memories of those who the character has to interact with; and that is something we can replicate in real life. If I move somewhere and cut off all contact with the people I have known I am in the same place as our character. I've done a bunch of stuff and I have memories of people and places but since those I'm now associating with weren't there they can't know and there is no proof. My whole life from before the move might as well have been made up as an elaborate fiction.... in fact maybe it was and how am I to know?

So now that our character has realized that he can't prove his current reality is more real than his last one, what would I recommend that he do? I think he looks back on the events as real; he really did feel the way he felt and he really did do the things he did and he really does have memories of all that stuff. By all the tools that he has to measure reality, he was experiencing real events in the holodeck. As much as he can he should try to use what he learned in the holodeck into his new life, being aware that he could still be in the holodeck and that each reality has slightly (sometimes substantially) different rules.

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